52. A business owner who wants company recognition
If you've built a name for yourself, how do you build a name for your business? 💼 In this episode, we meet with Rafael, a reputable marketing expert who's known for being, well, Rafael. With the launch of his new business, Rafael wants his agency name to be as esteemed as his own reputation, but he's been meeting some resistance. Phil and Lauren talk about the importance of elevator pitches, repeating messages, and helping people connect the dots. Enjoy!
Episode transcription
Phil:
Well hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil
Lauren:
and I'm Lauren.
Phil:
Actually her name is chatty Cathy.
Lauren:
Oh my God. Where am I supposed to go from there? You're giving me nothing.
Phil:
Why did I say that?
Lauren:
I don't know. I think you're hungry.
Phil:
I'm so hungry. How did you know?
Lauren:
Because you've been talking about it for hours. So I think when I said my name is Lauren and you said that I was actually chatty Cathy, that's a great example of how your personal brand can really influence the way that people perceive you, which aligns really well with this episode. So our guests today...
Phil:
You really saved it. You really saved the sinking ship. Thank you.
Lauren:
No thanks. Thanks for throwing me this challenge. So our guest today is an established, trusted marketing professional and he's opened up his own agency and that agencies name has nothing to do with his own. And so he's in an interesting place in his career because he is getting business because of who he is and the relationship that he's built over the years. And yet he's having challenges making people recognize his company name with the same respect and authority.
Phil:
Exactly what she said. Yeah. At least someone's paying attention today. No, it's true. But it's interesting to explore the dynamic of company name, personal brand. Why do people come to you? How do you decide one or the other? Sometimes you can't make the decision to change one. Let's say you buy a company or let's say your company's acquired, blah, blah, blah. There's all different kinds of scenarios and we start to explore how to prioritize and make decisions today based on demand at what customers want.
Lauren:
Exactly. So let's do it.
Phil:
Let's get to our conversation, which I really enjoyed having with Rafael.
Rafael:
My name is Rafael, right? We've had challenges. I started this company, RG2 a year ago. It's a consulting, marketing consulting company. I've been in, in the corporate world for 20 years for most of my time. I already knew from my corporate life and all referrals and I've been doing quite well. However, my biggest challenge is now to start growing the company beyond my name. So my client will start hiring RG2 and not Rafael. That's my challenge.
Phil:
Wow, that's a great challenge. Thank you for bringing on a challenge that we have not tackled before. Right. Lauren? This is like a reverse personal brand challenge. So often we get people that call us, they're like, you know, this is the company, but I think I need more of a personal brand and here's where I file. He's like, I have a personal brand. That's the way we've got clients. That's why they've called us, but get me out of this so that it, you almost become more known for the company. Cool. I like it.
Lauren:
I have some questions. Of course. I'm bursting with questions Rafael all the time. It's like so annoying for Phil. So my first question for you is do you have other people on your team at your company?
Rafael:
Yeah. I recently hired a part time person, which is somebody that used to work with me and a couple other companies. And I also have teams in Latin America, Mexico, Guatemala, that help me at a particular time. So that's how I've been able to grow because, because then I'm able to, you know, to take some of the work to those teams. So yes, what I want to do is more of that.
Lauren:
Okay, perfect. And so are these people who are working with you, client facing or are you involved with every project?
Rafael:
I'm involved with every project.
Lauren:
Okay, great. So I can, I can see why, where from the client standpoint it would be challenging to know, am I dealing with Rafael or is it Rafael's company if they're working with you, you know, not working with the company. It's interesting.
Phil:
And why have your clients signed on to work with you? What is that deliverable that they're happy with that you're providing? Can you tell us a bit about that?
Rafael:
Right. The objective with a client or what I sell is communication. So most of my clients have a challenge in growing the digital channel. And that may be, you know, selling a product or I have like media companies that are, trust me, show me a competence that they need to develop the online presence and online reputation, that's a straight up consulting gig. And I have all the clients that sell insurance, you know, they need to acquire customers and then I'm helping with a strategy but also implementing, you know, maybe Facebook campaigns or Google campaigns are in the team. So that's how the team gets involved, right? So I may have clients that hire me because it's me and then I have other times that I'm able to pass on some of the work for other people.
Lauren:
And when someone meets you at a party for the first time and they, they ask, what do you do? How do you answer that?
Rafael:
That hasn't happened much lately.But I'd say, yeah, I have a marketing consulting company.
Lauren:
Perfect. So my initial feeling is that it's important for you and for the people on your team to become comfortable saying and embracing the company name. So, and I know I put you on the spot with this question and it hasn't really been happening too much, but when it does happen, make sure to use your company name. Like say I run the growth marketing consulting firm insert name and we switch it from I to we in that description. So that way they understand that you’re running something that's bigger than you.
Rafael:
Right,
Lauren:
Do you agree Phil?
Phil:
I do.
Rafael:
Yeah. I actually used to be that way a lot but I don't emphasize the name of the company and that's something that certainly we need to do.
Lauren:
Yeah. It's kind of like the company is another person. Like that's how that, at least when we brand companies, we think of them as individuals. We try to figure out what the personality of that company is and describe the company. Like you would a person. So for you, I think it's important to think of the company as an entity that's separate from you, that you're just like close friends with or whatever and really get comfortable with referring to the company name because similar to if you were to meet someone and not catch their name, they're not as memorable. So it's the same principle for your company even if it's not a person.
Rafael:
Okay. Okay. I've actually, the person that works with me here in Miami, I've been telling her to do that, because every time she sees somebody that we know is that, well I'm working with Rafa and I'll tell him, you know, you’re working for us too, they'll just tell him me..
Phil:
Yeah. And I'll add to that thought because if you're going to put all of your eggs in the basket of company as opposed to personal brand and there are, by the way, a few reasons that people do that. You obviously have a reason to do this. I've heard other people making this switch when they want to better position themselves to sell a company, it would be very hard to sell Phil Pallen Collective right now because Phil Pallen Collective wouldn't come along with Phil Pallen. You know, I positioned my company from the start as a lifestyle business knowing that it's not something I would've wanted to sell, but not everyone has that kind of clarity from the beginning. And I've had moments when I thought, what if I actually just branded myself as a, as a company? I've heard people talk about this Neil Patel, who wrote a really interesting blog post called, ‘I wish I’d never built a personal brand’ and talks about the challenges of having a lot more traffic to his personal brand website than to his companies where he has shareholders and and other people involved. It's interesting.
So I think to build on to Lauren's point, when she asked you on the spot, you know, how do you introduce yourself, it’s almost like what's your elevator pitch? I think that that needs to come along with some context. Digital Marketing or growth marketing or whatever you call it. I think it needs to have a bit more context so people we increase the likelihood that people will remember that introduction because if the company doesn't sound as exciting as you, you as an individual always have a bit of an advantage because you are a person and every person is made up of two things. Content, what you say and how you say it. Personality, it's harder to establish a balance between those two things with a company, the company's content, what they say, the personality, how they say it. I think we need a bit more personality in this one sentence or at least in the the casual positioning of this company. Lauren, do you agree with this
Lauren:
100% yes, I do agree with this and I think as well, like Neil Patel, such a great example. I'd never heard of that blog post Phil, but gosh, I'm going to read it.
There are so many examples that you could model yourself after. Rafael. Like I always referenced Gary V as like a really good example of someone who has balances, personal brand and then his other ventures, but even on the about page of his website, it starts off saying Gary V is the chairman of Vayner X, a modern day media and communications holding company and the active CEO of Vayner Media, a full service advertising agency servicing Fortune 100 clients across the company at four locations. Like that's the first sentence of his about page and it's, there's such clarity and confidence and Rafael, there's no reason why you couldn't do the same.
Rafael:
Right, right.
Phil:
There's some specificity there that Gary V has given. You know, I almost didn't mention the Neil Patel example. I almost didn't say it out loud because it's pretty negative like it's very negative. The blog post is called, I wish I didn't build a personal brand, but so for the attention I want to give that, I want to bring up Gary V, if you weren't going to do it, I was going to, because he's done it in a really positive way. His personality. That's a very strong part of his brand filters down into the way the company is positioned and I would love more unlike Neil who has regret. I'd love to be more like Gary V who's used it as a competitive advantage. That's what I'm interested in doing for you. Rafael, let's whip that at a party introduction into shape and figure out what it is about you that makes people want to work with you. I think we can do that in the next few minutes.
Rafael:
Great. Let's do it.
Phil:
What are the types of clients that you work with? If you were to look back, I am, I think you said it's been about a year, right? Like what have been your favourite projects, industries, even clients, you don’t have to name them, but give us some idea of like the clients that you would love to service and that you want to continue servicing.
Rafael:
I love a client that has an established business and needs to open up this new opportunity in digital. I like those clients instead of the client that is in big trouble and is counting on this to save the company. That's more of a time and obviously I like the client that is in thinking about this in a strategic way.
Phil:
Great. Already some good words in that little, that little answer. How about another question and let's test your self awareness. The clients that have decided to sign on with you, probably not because of your specific service offerings, but because of the trust they have in you to deliver the job, to meet the goals that they've outlined. Rafael, what is it about you specifically that you think they're drawn to that they respect enough to put money on the table to say get the job done. What is it about you specifically?
Rafael:
It's experience my track record. You know, 20 years doing digital, being around for that long and you're 100% right, because they trust me.
Phil:
One more question. When you look back on 20 years of being in digital. If I had to say to you, give me one win, one moment where you were like, yes, this is why I do what I do. I'm so passionate and I love this work. Something you accomplished something like that. What is the first thing? Not even, don't even think about it too long. I want the very first thing that comes to mind. Don't even filter it. Just say it.
Rafael:
Well, it's a few years back and I was working for television company and we started the first Youtube channel and that was back when youtube was just starting and the time to get the first partners, we were proud of the first Spanish medium to sign up with them and we positioned ourselves among the top three Spanish channels in Youtube really quickly. So that one was with a win that I, you know, I very rapidly, became a business that we will grow. That was unexpected.
Phil:
I said that I would have one more question. Now I have one extra question because I love what you're telling us. Do you work with exclusively Hispanic brands or Spanish speaking brands?
Rafael:
No.
Phil:
No. Okay.
Rafael:
Yeah, I have 100% American English, you know mainland. You are Hispanic and I also have Latin American clients so I have the three.
Phil:
Great, because I think that's interesting. Okay. Lauren, you've been quiet because I know you've been listening and writing. What have you heard that is interesting and what are you thinking in terms of putting this all into words? What do you think?
Lauren:
Well I love you used the word unexpected. Rafael, I think that's really interesting and it would make me want to learn more, saying that you, you grow people and companies in ways that are unexpected. So what I've got so far, and this is really, really rough, but I'm thinking if someone were to be like, oh hi, I'm Lauren and you are, and you would say I'm Rafael the CEO and founder of RG2, a growth marketing firm. We push established companies to grow in an expected way in the digital space or something like that.
Phil:
I love that you say it one more time Lauren. Because it was. There's a lot in there. Say it one more time.
Lauren:
Yes. I'll say it one more time and I'm not completely sold on the second sentence, FYI. So I would want to tweak it a little bit. But so here's what I've got so far. I'm Rafael, the CEO and founder of RG2 a growth marketing firm. We push established companies in an unexpected way in the digital space.
Rafael:
Yeah. I'm not sure unexpected is the right word but I like the spirit of it. One thing that I push a lot is that I don’t come up with a plan because I think plans are useless. You never know where the growth is going to come from, but you have to try it. You have to try different things. And over time you'll find it. Somebody comes to you and says, okay is this exactly the plan you’re going to follow, then he is lying to you. So in that spirit, unexpected is the wrong word but it is there. My intention is that they learn so much about trends. So, uh, but we don't know all of this. We don't know. We have to work together and we'll find a path together.
Lauren:
Yeah.
Rafael:
So I don't think unexpected is the right word, but it's certainly within the spirit of what we're trying to grow.
Lauren:
Well, maybe, and I, I just rejig the sentence a little bit and I think it's better now. Maybe it was the placement of unexpected because I think the word unexpected in the right context is, is very intriguing because it's like unexpected. Well, I want to know what that is like. It's almost sounds like a secret that you're whole, you're keeping, so how about, we push established companies to chase and own unexpected opportunities in the digital space?
Rafael:
Aye.
Lauren:
I think unexpected needs to be paired with a really positive word opportunity. I think that's what was missing before.
Rafael:
I like that.
Phil:
You know, it's funny, that's the word that stood out to me that Rafael said opportunity. And he said it with such conviction and I was like, Ooh, that was the word that stood out to me. Which is so funny that that ended up in the, in that brand sentence. What were you going to say Rafael?
Rafael:
Can I get a copy of this.
Lauren:
Yeah, of course. I'll email it to you right now.
Rafael:
I probably will. I'll need to trim it a little bit cause you know, I need to be able to explain this in Spanish, in English. And usually the relationship between Spanish and English is like almost double the amount of words, you know, even if it's over as long in English and Spanish is gonna be way too long. So I need to listen to it again and probably trim a few words. So, so when it is in Spanish is doesn't, you know, it doesn't become a mouthful, but it's definitely going the right direction. I love it.
Phil:
That's great. And I think, again, it's the first case where we're reverse engineering a personal brand. I think the way you do it, and again, it's new territory for us and there's not always like a path that we follow. We don't just follow a template in every kind of case. It just, you've got to get creative about how you go with it. But I think in this case, if you want people to pay attention, more to a corporate brand than a personal brand that might already be established, you need to borrow from the personal brand. What makes it so great and pepper it, sprinkle it around on that corporate brand so it increases the likelihood that that's what people remember and associate with results.
Rafael:
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And it's actually true. No, but my company, it works like me. It's my son or my daughter, you know?
Phil:
And then of course there's other things that you can do through this transition that are more visual. So like, I probably wouldn't put a picture of you on the home page. I would maybe not even put a picture of, you may be on the about page or somewhere, but I would definitely have it so that it's only found by people who are looking specifically for it. But then the language of the company and on the website should feel that it has personality. It has to have perspective and opinion. Otherwise if that piece is missing, then we are seeking the human behind the brand because we as humans, that's how we communicate and how we connect with personality. So if the company can have that personality and I think Gary V and the way that he's made companies, he's a very good at uh, brand hero of that happening successfully.
Rafael:
Yeah, I'll definitely check that out because it's finding that balance will make you successful. Yeah, that's great. I'll definitely check that out.
Phil:
That's great. So Rafael, this has been a very productive conversation. What are your next steps? What are you thinking?
Rafael:
Well, I'm going to listen to this again and now share with the team as well and try to take that tagline and work it out a little bit more. But, I've been looking for this for a long time. So, then after that, see how that translates to language for the Linkedin page and into language for the web page, for website and start using it.
Phil:
That's great. We can do a lot of things, but translating to Spanish unfortunately is not one of them. I have my first Spanish class next Tuesday, so I'm a little bit behind the ball on that one, so I'm going to rely on you for that.
Rafael:
Don’t worry about it.
Phil
Well, um, thank you Rafael for coming to us with such a clear, exciting, creative challenge and letting us help you with it and being so open to hearing what we have to say. I think this is going to be useful for you. It's going to be useful for other people as well as similar challenges.
Rafael:
Well, I'm very, I was really excited when I saw the opportunity since I met you. I've been trying to see how we could engage. So it was a great opportunity and I will definitely drop you a line in, I don't know, six months or so and let you know how's it going.
Phil:
I love it. Well, thank you for your time and again for your openness and good luck with everything and let us know how it goes.
Rafael:
Likewise
Phil:
Chat soon. Bye.
Phil:
Well that was very efficient. I feel like anytime we get into the rhythm of writing a brand sentence, you know, I just hand that over to you like a hot potato.
Lauren:
I like writing, just expecting it.
Phil:
Neat challenge. It's a neat challenge to go the opposite way than what we're used to. Usually for us it's, well, I've had this company and now I'm realizing that I want to have a stronger personal brand, which makes sense in a lot of contexts. But in this one it was super interesting to tackle it the other way.
Lauren:
Yeah. I guess we should probably talk about this for our listeners, what do you think are the considerations that someone should make when deciding to go with their personal brand or a company brand? I know that you mentioned like positioning a company to sell, but are there any other things that come to mind?
Phil:
I first want to say that that's the question I get asked the most at conferences on stage people would say should I have a company brand or a personal brand and it is a decision you have to make early on and a lot of times we see people switching later on even if they've decided to brand as a company or as a person they switch. So it's important to know the considerations on both sides. I would say, what's your goal? I mean everything we do comes back to goal, but in this case, what's your goal? What are the possible trajectories that you can anticipate, you know of your work with that company? Is it something you could sell, for example, package up, sell it to others, maybe it gets acquired and they buy you out. If that's the case, company's going to be easier for you to remove yourself from the equation. For sure.
Lauren:
Yeah, that's one consideration and I guess another is thinking about what your potential customer wants to buy. Like I know a lot of corporations wouldn't really consider hiring an individual if they're outsourcing a specific growth marketing need. So in that way, Rafael is smart because he knows that corporations recognize other corporations so to speak, and it might add a bit more, I guess, gravitas to his pitch.
Phil:
That's a very good point. One of the advantages to go with a personal brand is that your name is never going to change. So in terms of taking a risk, it's typically the, the lesser risk, right? In terms of wanting to rebrand down the road and have to start from scratch. Choosing your name is a safe choice because you're probably not going to change your name in your life. Maybe you might get married, your last name might change, but building that brand equity from the moment you start, typically it's safer to choose something that is less likely to evolve, let's say, into something else. That's I would say more times than not, when someone's asking company or personal brand, we point them in the direction of personal brand. Right? Lauren?
Lauren:
We do. We do.
Phil:
Definitely. Because usually when we say why do people hire you? Is it the product? Is it the service or is it you? Normally when people find us and they're considering this, usually they're the biggest part in the equation. For Rafael, it was no different. So let's say we've made the decision, personal brand or company brand, what do we need to have next? Well, you need to have a way for people to understand who you are, why they should care in a sentence or two. But let's say one sentence like your elevator pitch.
Lauren:
Yeah, yeah. So they need to know like they need to understand and be able to communicate who you are, why other people should care. They also need to identify what problem they're solving. And I know that kind of falls into the why should people care about bucket. But especially for a business, you need to be crystal clear on what problem you're solving because especially corporations are inundated with sales pitches and cold calls and cold emails all the time. So you have to know precisely how it is that you're going to help that company or otherwise you'll just be ignored.
Phil:
Great point. I would add to that personality is what people remember. So while you're super focused on the content that you share, the, what explaining, you know the what, how you function, what you offer, your personality is your secret ingredient that’s what people are gonna come back to for as many times as I've said, you know, I specialize in personal branding and online strategy. That's not that interesting because other people do that too. But the thing that people always remember about me is my Twitter bio and I use it in many of my bios, which says, ‘if your baby's ugly, it's my job to tell you’ that's that comical personality, little bit that people remember. So have that personality. Don't be afraid to inject it in that elevator pitch.
Lauren:
Yeah. I actually have a recent example of a pitch gone wrong. So I was looking for those CRMs that you like to assign for me to go on a quest on and I put down your company name for salesforce and I was getting all these calls from an Atlanta number at 5:00 AM Pacific time. And then I'd get an email from this rep saying, Hi Lauren, thanks for your interest in salesforce. Our company has improved efficiencies by up to 95% for our clients. Do you have time for a quick call and uh, or five to 10 minutes for a quick call today? And it was just so incredibly off putting because I don't really care about what you've done for other people. I care about what you're going to be doing for me or for in your case, your business. And so that to me is like an elevator pitch gone wrong.
Phil:
Good point. It needs to be focused on the solution. The answer you have for that question, less about listing your credentials and more what can you do for me that solves an immediate problem that I have.
Lauren:
Yeah, and also considers the person you're talking to like a quick Linkedin search would have told to anyone that I'm in Pacific Time and won't be answering the phone at 5:00 AM and it's the same thing if you're speaking to someone who says they're from a particular place or went to a particular school or whatever, adjust your message slightly so that it can be more intriguing and more emotionally striking for whoever's listening.
Phil:
Well, there you go. How about that for tangible takeaways after our conversation with Rafael deciding personal brand or business brand, also writing your elevator pitch depending on which past you choose. By the way, we'd love to hear from you. I'm @philallen
Lauren:
I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil:
#brandtherapy is where we can continue to have this conversation. If you enjoy today's show or you learned something from it from this episode, then here's a good idea. Maybe find your way into the iTunes store. Maybe look us up, find us. Leave a five star review that helps other people discover this podcast. Know that we really appreciate it cause we put lots of time and effort into this for you to enjoy it and for you to also more importantly, have something to take away and take action on, with your business. Well that's it for this episode. We'll be back with another one very soon. Until then, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next time on Brand Therapy.
Lauren:
Bye.
