56. A data safety expert who wants to sell
How do you sell something that's hard to explain? 🤓 In this episode, Phil and Lauren meet with Brett Jaffe, a VP of a cyber security company, to discuss tactics to communicate complicated subjects in a succinct way. We cover the importance of building trust by communicating with a personable delivery, and we also give examples of communicating value from the get-go. If your leads' eyes glaze over when you start your company's elevator pitch, this is a must-listen for you!
Episode transcription
Phil:
Oh, here we go. It's that time again. Time for Brand Therapy. I'm Phil
Lauren:
and I'm Lauren.
Phil:
Let's do this again. Shall we? Just another episode. This one's going to be good. This is where we take complicated brands and things and break it down to classic example of when people are not exempt from branding. Lauren Moore. Do you agree?
Lauren:
I totally agree. And while this example of this guest is with cyber security, I think this episode is completely relevant for anyone who works for a startup or in the tech space or works in a business area that requires a bit of explaining.
Phil:
Oh, that's a good point. You know, because a lot of people call us when it comes to personal branding. That's like what we're known for. That's we started doing, it's what we continue to do. However, when you're on our website, philplallen.co/examples, you scroll towards the bottom, you will see we don't only brand people, we also brand companies and more instances than not, even when we're branding a company or we're identifying a person within an organization. So much of this is to come up on the podcast before. But so much of this is humanizing the brand, right? And starting to identify, okay, here's the personality, here are the goals. It's all the same stuff. And that's what's kind of interesting. We talk with our guest today about how do we break it down into conversation. Right conversation.
Lauren:
Exactly. And as part of this episode, we have some pretty exciting freebies.
Phil:
I knew it wouldn't take long for you to bring that up. You're so excited about these.
Lauren:
Yeah. Cause now it's like you thought your Brand Therapy experience ended when the podcast track stopped and jumped to the next one. But oh, no, it keeps going. Exactly. So this week's free download is going to be a personal brand tips for beginners PDF. So for someone like our guests who is really trying to build credibility and trust and explain a super complicated area of work, this gets back to basics and helps people evaluate how to simply explain their brand so that they can start making some sales.
Phil:
To your point, I like all of our downloads, but I really like this one. So if you're listening, well you are, if you're hearing us right now, not only do you need to listen to this, but you need to go get that PDF on our website philpallen.co under resources, right?
Lauren:
Yeah, under resources and the next blog post if you're like, I don't want to download another thing. I don't want to know anything in my downloads folder and say that they've already got it.
Phil:
They're that excited.
Lauren:
Well yeah, if they did think that way it would be a colossal error on their part and they'll miss out on the PDF forever. But if you're in the mood for just a blog post, we've also got a really great summary of the best LinkedIn summary examples. So LinkedIn, you and I love it. It's kind of like the ugly child of social media. It's like nerdy. It's like not exciting.
Phil:
It's boring, but we love it because it really, really, really helpful media channel that's going through puberty because now it's becoming exciting and attractive and beautiful. People spend time there, instead of the time they used to spend on Facebook.
I'm the biggest fan in the world of LinkedIn. I absolutely love it. Totally.
Lauren:
It's like before, it's like the Neville Longbottom of social media platforms.
Phil:
Oh my God, Harry Potter reference. You're out of control.
Lauren
I know, I know. So anyway, if you are feeling like your LinkedIn profile is stale or you just feel like you haven't tried it out and you're posting away on Facebook, it's not working for you then go to this blog post because you're going to get really inspired and you're going to immediately be able to improve your LinkedIn profile.
Phil:
Free download blog posts, and the podcast episode, which we're going to start right now. Let's jump right into it. Shall we? Lauren?
Lauren:
Let's go.
Phil:
Here's our conversation with Brett
Brett:
My name is Brett. I worked for a cybersecurity data compliance consulting firm, big mouthful, and most people just say cyber security firm and in our business, there are so many different levels of companies in this space. And I worked for one that has worked for the US federal government for 24 years and has been on the forefront of everything and has worked in many departments with security clearances and worked across all 50 States for the US government. So how do I differentiate myself because I can't put that in my opening tag. I'm a cyber security firm just like the other firm that called, or the two guys who just graduated from college a year ago and are now calling on these firms. And that's really my problem without incredible customer education, I have trouble differentiating my brand.
Lauren:
Interesting.
Phil:
I love this challenge, Phil and Lauren to the rescue.
Brett
All right, now I should record!
Phil:
Yeah, you'll get, don't worry. You better listen back to it and you can make notes if you want, but yeah, we're making an episode out of this. This is a really exciting challenge. And funny that I say exciting because it's a case where maybe your industry is not quite as exciting as others, but how do we make it exciting so that it stands out online so that it stands out in conversation. I think we'll do some distilling today of like how do we distill down to what makes it interesting and to make sure that that's really apparent in your brand. And that'll happen with a few questions that we ask you.
Brett:
That makes a lot of sense. And what's interesting about, like you said, it's not interesting, you know our our space, but it's coming for everyone. Whether you have a donut shop on the corner or you have any type of business that wants to do business with other businesses, cyber security and data compliance is coming for you.
Phil:
Okay. Now this is getting exciting. I like the stakes are being raised and how you describe this. So this is heading in a good direction. Lauren, what are you thinking about?
Lauren:
Well, I'm thinking about why it's important for people to know about the work that you do. I know your credentials back you up. Your credentials show your expertise. But I think that we need to find that kind of emotional pull first to intrigue people. Saying something like cybersecurity and data compliance is coming for you. That's getting my attention. That's like very, very direct and it's, it's making me, you know, it's a little bit of fear marketing in a way, but I think Brett, if you could expand on that and say why is it coming for you or for all businesses and why is it critical for someone to work with you?
Brett:
The reason, I guess part one of that is why is it coming for you? Because how you handle people's data and how you interact with your customers is really part of everyone's business now. I mean making the exception, no, not even the exception of the guy who mows your lawn, they now have to handle client data, check data, credit card data and if you miss handle it, you're out of business. If your clients suffer a security breach of any kind, and that could be someone getting your information and pretending to be you and stealing your money down to someone just getting into your Facebook and hacking it. It happens on the smallest level to the largest level. And the players in that space in that dark web space are becoming more and more and larger and larger and for more and more reasons.
So part one of that of course, is you've got to shore up your borders. Not to use political terms, but your business borders. You really do. Or you're gonna have problems. And if you can look at the technological arc that we are on right now, imagine what the next decades going to look like. And so if Russia or North Korea or Iran, want your information, there's really not much you can do about it. And if I have a business with a competitive advantage of any kind, which I hope that many businesses do, you better protect that competitive advantage or you'll lose it. It's just really that simple. Whether I make the donuts or whether I have a cyber security business that offers unique products and things like that.
Lauren:
Yeah, my partner is always always going on about cybersecurity, so this conversation is really, really familiar for me. Not only does he use Lastpass but he uses Lastpass, two factor authentication. So anytime he wants to log into something he gets the six digit code every single time. That six digit security code every time, every time, every time. He created a Facebook account for like a week when it first came out and then immediately deactivated his account because he was just like, I don't want like he could see ahead that it wasn't wise to be giving so much of your personal information to a company that didn't seem to know or understand the responsibility and the security ramifications of their platform. He's bonkers about this stuff.
Brett:
I wish I had spoken to him. He was absolutely right. There is a massive cyber security labor shortage and it's only growing. So cybersecurity schools or whatever cannot produce enough talent to fill the open positions right now and that problem is only going to widen the gaps that people have come critical air, you know, time.
Phil:
How did you get into this?
Brett:
I had a company that was operating within the healthcare industry and there are data compliance restrictions to how you handle people's sensitive and personal information. And so we had to strictly adhere to that and that I was fortunate enough to grow that company to a point where we were going to sell that company. And so the company that was acquiring me hired a, what they call a third eye or a third party auditor to come in and look at my compliance protocol because they were basically buying that risk from me. And the company that was hired to audit me said, wow, you did a really good job. You set it up just by, you know, by all the best practice models. We're opening up an office and focusing on private sector, how would you like a job? So it was just a timing that they were impressed with my work at the right time and brought me into the fold and I had been reading for years that cyber security was going to become a growing issue, so it was the right time.
Lauren:
I think that really the way that you're casually describing the importance of the work that you do, that's what needs to go on your website. That's what your team needs to be communicating to others. You had said something like if you have customers, you have data, and if you mishandle the data, you're out of business. You said something along those lines and I think people, I and I, I'm just speaking generally, but at least for Phil and me, I think that unless we, if we, as soon as we hear words like data and cyber security and compliance, that's where you lose us, right? That's where we zone out and think this doesn't apply to us even though it does. So I think by really making, speaking about the customer first, that's something that anyone in business can relate to. So I would use that as the hook or the lead in for almost any description of your business.
Brett:
Excellent. I like that.
Phil:
And it's, it's already apparent in about 10 minutes of conversation, Brett, that I would trust your ability to take a complex idea and break it down into a format that I could understand quickly. So that is a competitive advantage. That is an opportunity where yes, you might lose me with the company positioning and all those big fancy words. I might zone out like any other, you know, millennial or even not in millennial, but anyone who's like intimidated by all that stuff. But I would listen to you, for example, if you were a humanizing element of this brand, a person that could give me a tip, you know, on LinkedIn that could give me an email. I could see you having an email newsletter.
Brett:
So from the company. And maybe it's like one idea per week. One small way to consider privacy, consider a security, consider these things that we often overlook because we just follow the masses and sign up for Facebook.
Phil:
Exactly and I want you to write that email blast by pulling out your phone or you know, recording a conversation with a friend or someone where you put it into conversational words like as if you're giving advice to a friend. And I really believe that you could get more eyeballs onto your brand, onto the business, particularly you, almost in a kind of like a sales role with that responsibility. I feel like actually the importance of humanizing the brand is critical and with you able to say online in the way that you said in this conversation. I think that could be incredibly powerful because the way that you're positioned as an expert, you are a necessity for small business owners and I love when professionals call us, doctors, lawyers, anyone with a skill set that often takes going to school or having a lot of work experience. Anytime you've got a skillset where literally the answers you have are things that people are typing into Google, you already have a distinct advantage when it comes to growing your brand and getting in front of faces, you know? So that's something to think about.
Brett:
That's a very good point. And you also alluded to another obstacle for us is that even at the highest, when you get into a company that's 5 million in sales, 10 million in sales and more, the head of the company usually knows very little about what we're doing. They're usually brought up through a different rank and don't have any kind of IT or technical cyber security programming experience. So we're speaking a foreign language to the people who need to understand our language.
Lauren:
Got it, got it. Well maybe as part of your copy or positioning or even your services, you have almost an executive training program like or an executive summit to first teach people what it is that you do and why cybersecurity is critical before you even begin working.
Brett:
Like a cyber security for dummies.
Lauren:
Yeah, I think so just because especially if you know a business owner is going to be hiring you, it would be nice for them to at least understand generally what you're doing. Like when you go to a mechanic. I don't know specifically what the mechanics doing under the hood of my car, but I know roughly what they're doing. But I think also like emphasizing like literally the risks people are taking if they don't work with you, I think that could be a good tactic for you too. So something like “we keep people in business by making sure they handle customer information in the most discreet, secure way possible”. I think that's you're emphasizing that the, we keep people in business part just like how you emphasize if you have customers right at the beginning and then back it up with the actual work that you're doing.
Brett:
We even actually produce disaster plans for companies so that if the lights go off, how do we stay in business? There's a plan that gets executed in the event of hurricane grid shut down. Anything could happen. How do we stay in business in the event of, and that's part of also what we have done for the federal government and then other company.
Lauren:
Wow. I'm looking at your website right now and I think it would be awesome if this simple way that you describe these services like really high level one or two or even three sentence descriptions. I would have that on the homepage of your website as examples of the services and then let people expand like click and then expand to get more information cause even hearing that right away, it's fascinating and it would make me or anyone else want to learn more.
Phil:
It's differentiating actually you come to us bread and say how do I differentiate myself? And we're kind of like, well the way that you sum this up and describe it is different from how others do it. Others find kind of safety in the use of big words and complicated terms. To Lauren's point, we don't always have to know exactly what's being done. We don't need to know the secret sauce or the technical, but we kind of need to trust the person who's doing the work. So the fact is your persona, your ability to communicate, I think is differentiating from others in your industry. And that's, you know, I'm saying that without obviously having done a ton of research yet in this industry, but there's a real opportunity for you to build trust. As simple as posting one of those tips on LinkedIn or sending it out in an email blast. I may read it and I may implement it or I may not implement it, but the fact is by you making that effort to add some value to my life, you are top of mind, right? And that's at the end of the day, all you can really ask for.
Brett:
Yes, I agree.
Phil:
Hold on, hold on, hold your horses. We know you love this episode with Brett. It's going to get even better. But it's time for us to tell you a little bit more about how you can get some info that will help you even beyond just this podcast episode.
Lauren:
So to start off with our blog posts for the week, we're going to be posting about the best LinkedIn summary examples and some tips that you can implement immediately onto your own profile. Brett, here on this episode was having some challenges describing the complicated nature of the work that he does, and so we thought this blog post would be useful for other people who are in complicated areas of work.
Phil:
Raise your hand if you haven't looked at your LinkedIn summary in a few days, a few weeks, a few months. My hand is raised.
Lauren:
Yeah, I hope that everyone listening to this at work is sitting in their cubicle with their hand raised in the air.
Phil:
So this download is really useful, really not download blog post. Let's talk about the download now.
Lauren:
Great, so for the download, we're going to be going back to basics and creating a free download with personal brand tips for beginners. So even if you're well into your career or even if you have a brand, this is going to be a resource that's a great refresher of the basic branding essentials that you need, if you're rethinking the approach of your personal brand online. That's it. That's my sales pitch. Do you have anything else to add?
Phil:
No. You've, you've sold me, I'm going to the website right now and I'm downloading it just like every single listener is doing as well. Right, right. I certainly hope so.
Phil:
Let's get back to the episode, shall we?
Lauren:
Let's do it.
Phil:
There's a great brand hero that we can give you. A company that I've worked with in the past called bench and I give them as an example of like a boring industry but an exciting brand. So I think they might be pretty inspirational for you when you look at how they've positioned themselves. Bench.co it's an account or a bookkeeping company rather, and they target small businesses, small business owners. Their website is really easy to understand, utilizes some great visuals, photography, diagrams, that kind of thing. So I think their ability to take something that's serious and scary and make it seem simple really that's, I mean that's the art of what you're tackling so they might be a good source of inspiration for you.
Brett:
I will look them up. Thank you.
Phil:
You're welcome. You're very welcome. Um, what kind of role do you play, Brett, in relation to the company? Do they, is sales a big part of your job? Are you speaking at conferences? How does that look?
Brett:
I am a VP of sales, so I'm really heading the sales effort that we have across the company with a major focus now being opening up our private sector business. We're doing well and have done extremely well in the government federal space, but now in the private sector, we, um, this is all brand new and that's really my, uh, my efforts.
Phil:
Got it. Yeah. And there is no exact kind of formula to follow in that respect. Right? You can have different strategies for sales and for outreach, but again, a big part of it is just starting the conversation and for that recipient on the other end of the conversation to trust the person who's guiding that conversation. I think so when we, when we consider social media, we, when we consider branding and positioning, I think it's those parts, the conversational element to how you describe was pretty complicated and otherwise what, you know, what are not so complicated ways. I think that's your differentiating element. How does that feel?
Brett:
I think you're absolutely on the mark. Where I'm going to struggle is how to really do that. But you're right, I can just differentiate myself once I'm in front of that client easily. It's the time leading up to that. So on the one hand you guys were dead, right? I have to educate and alarm the potential clients and at the time that I've successfully alarmed them and educated them, I then have to be ready for my brand to stand in front of them. And so that's a two, three, four step process.
Phil:
Uh huh, and I wouldn't overthink it cause it's, it feels a bit weird, right? Cause it's you and it's sometimes hard for people to think about themselves as a brand right as opposed to someone else or maybe someone with lots of followers or whatever it is that makes them, you know, whatever it is, whatever makes them a personal brand. But I would just, um, my advice to you would be don't overthink it. So if you're having this conversation in real life, given someone a little tidbit on how to stay more secure than that, if that conversation is happening in real life, it also needs to happen online. And you can even reference, you know, a LinkedIn update. LinkedIn is probably a good social media platform for you to be on to chase some of those more corporate clients. But a great social media post would be, um, you know, yesterday I was having a conversation with a friend who was worried about this, you know, I gave him this, you know, exactly.
Here's something to think about. Here's a seed I planted with John. Think about one, two, and three. And you'll likely be safer online. Like it can be that simple. It can even be shorter than that. Any of those conversations that are happening in real life have them online. In sales, we often think right away about, Oh my God, all the new people that don't know about us yet, we need to make sure they know about us. But oftentimes, almost always, it's easier to sell to people who already know you. So think of social media as recreating conversations that are happening in real life. Have them online. I mean it's actually how you ended up on this podcast and it ended up us chatting after years of not talking, right? Like I posted on LinkedIn if you want to be a guest and here you are.
So that's proof, you know that actually sharing some of those ideas that are happening in real life, online can help you stay top of mind. I'd leverage your existing network and the relationships you have and then I'd put, I'd put double the effort into that and then the remaining effort into cold outreach or starting conversations with new people. But I think for you to really own this, for you to really feel confidence in your ability, the differentiating element, which is taking all this complicated mumbo jumbo and actually explaining it to us in a way that feels accessible and feels urgent, critical, you know, cause no one's exempt from it.
Lauren:
The next time that you're driving down the street or about to run errands or something, look at the different businesses. Like maybe you'll pass an accounting firm and think, Hmm, I wonder if their clients have sent their 10-99’s to them through Gmail with no like encryption. Or if you go by a bakery, think hmm, I wonder if that bakery has a rewards program where they're also getting the email address and connecting it to the credit card that the person used, etc. and use that as kind of a starting point for creating the content in a really, really simple way. Like something for Phil and me, I mean our clients share their social media passwords with us. That's a huge responsibility and a huge liability if they're no longer a client anymore. I mean, there you go. Three examples of LinkedIn posts where you could explain the important nature of what you do for small businesses everyone can relate to.
Brett:
Well even for a small business, do you allow your customers to order online? Because if you do, you're opening up your entire system to them and you better have roadblocks because you they've got to pay online, which means they now tapped into your financial system and it's just that simple that you think you're not doing something vulnerable and you are.
Phil:
Beautiful. I love where we've arrived in this conversation and I'm hoping you feel the same way and I better see some social media posts, reiterating what we just talked about. I love it Brett. How do you feel about all this?
Brett:
Terrific. I have really enjoyed this. This has been, you know, helpful for me to have you all as a resource in this time and I appreciate this is great information to gather from experts.
Phil:
We are happy to help and we want to hear how everything goes for you as you look to implement some of this stuff. So keep us posted. Promise?
Brett:
I promise.
Phil:
Thank you for such a great chat, Brett. It's been wonderful and we look forward to catching up with you soon.
Brett:
Absolutely. Have a great time, guys.
Phil:
Thank you, Brett. Thanks for hanging out with us on Brand Therapy.
Lauren:
If you hadn't been singing, we'd already be recording.
Phil:
Well now we're recording. Okay.
Lauren:
Are you into cybersecurity, Phil?
Phil:
Not really, but even discussing it makes me think, Oh my God, what have I signed up for and what's out there and all of these concerns, right? It's kind of like I followed the herd of buffaloes in the Lion King, a wildebeest, and I'm one of them just running aimlessly because everyone else is doing it. But like what have I signed up for? What's out there? Who has my information? It's real and it's scary. And hearing that from someone like Brett is refreshing and makes it feel like even I could make some small changes today or things that I'm aware of. Very recently, I guess a year or two, I've been using LastPass, so every password for every website is different.
And even this morning I said to my mom, who is also using LastPass, I said, mom, what's your Twitter password? And she told it to me and I know that she uses this password on other sites. And I said, God, I said, stop and change your password. We talked about this because literally one person gets that password and tries it on all your sites, you're screwed. So it's an example of how it's relevant to everyone and Brett really breaks it down and makes it, you know, a little more palatable and implementable, not a word, but should be.
Lauren:
Yeah. Yeah. And what's intriguing about the conversation with Brett is that I think when most people think of cybersecurity, they're like, I don't need that, or that would never happen to me, or I don't work with a corporation so it doesn’t matter. But what's really critical for Brett to communicate is that yes, it can happen to you if you're a business of one or three or 10 it doesn't matter the size of your business. If you are a human being with a cell phone or a computer and you have customers, you need to really be thinking, thinking about your cybersecurity. So I don't know, I just feel like there's a real lesson to be learned here about how to make a boring business more interesting so people pay attention.
Phil:
Exactly. Yeah. It's funny because normally the boring businesses are what we really should be paying more attention to. It's the splashy ones that are maybe all appearance, no substance in some cases, right? Like we look at the things that people, you know, that people look at on Instagram, I'm guilty, I love golden retrievers. My explore page is all dogs, dogs and Cardi B, but really, you know, I should actually be paying attention. I should be spending valuable minutes of my day on LinkedIn, reading tips from Brett. I’d in a second subscribe to an email blast from him that taught me one useful thing to implement per day. Right? And imagine that as a way to stay top of mind. I think there's just a lot of opportunity there.
Lauren:
Definitely. Definitely. And the key I think for Brett is that to make a boring business interesting, you really have to be relatable and you have to use stories. Like I want to know, even if they're made up for that matter, I want to see a post on LinkedIn from Brett saying I was stopping by my local coffee shop as I do every Thursday morning, and I noticed that they implemented a new point system and I noticed that they asked for different customers for their phone number and it made me think about the risks that this coffee shop is taking without even realizing it. Here are some tips for how they could protect themselves, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know, I just think bringing more humanity to an otherwise like, I don't know, pretty dry subject will really, really help him.
Phil:
Not overthinking it too. Right. And I think, you know, so often the conversations happening in real life should be happening online. Very simple word for word transcribe it or whatever you have to do to get that idea down so it can exist electronically. But in terms of making a boring business interesting. It's usually the boring ones that have the information we need to make our businesses better and a way that you take something boring, make it interesting is by telling a story. It's really pretty simple.
Lauren:
Yeah, I think so.
Phil:
Well, we want to know what do you think? Do you have a boring business? How will this conversation help you? We're going to continue the conversation on social media. I'm @philpallen
Lauren:
I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil:
#brandtherapy where we'll continue this conversation and if you're happy with this episode, you learned something new, then take two seconds, please, and go to iTunes, leave us a review, ideally five stars and that helps other people discover this podcast. Thank you for hanging out with us on an episode that was maybe less splashy than others but actually equally, if not more important. We appreciate your time, Brett, and hopefully by hanging out with us for a few minutes you've learned something new as we always should on Brand Therapy. We'll see you back next time. Right here. We'll see you then.
Lauren:
See you next week.
