58. A coach who wants to attract male virtual assistants
How do you attract a completely new target market without affecting your current one? ✨ In this episode, Phil and Lauren met with Catherine Gladwyn of Delegate VA. Catherine's business teaches and accumulates virtual assistants. She's found that her clientele is mainly women but wants to position her business to attract men as well. We weigh the pros and cons of segmenting her audience, explore possibilities with positioning, and arrive at an interesting conclusion.
Episode transcription
Phil:
Well, hello there. Welcome to Brand Therapy. I'm Phil
Lauren:
And I'm Lauren
Phil:
And this is a podcast where we help you with your branding challenge. That's what we do, right?
Lauren:
Yeah. I think that's a good way of summarizing it.
Phil:
Just trying to keep it short. You know, after however many episodes we've done, 50 something, if I can’t summarize the brand for our podcasts into one sentence, then we're in trouble.
Lauren:
Should we talk about the episode?
Phil:
Yeah, we should. I love this one. I really love this one. I love this guest.
Lauren:
Our listeners, time is valuable just as your target audiences’ time is valuable. So let's just cut to the chase Phil.
Phil:
I like your style. Cut to it. Okay. I'm waiting for you.
Lauren:
Okay. So this episode is really awesome. Not only because we just love our guest Catherine, but because Catherine has a really cool business where basically she hires out virtual assistants and teaches them her methodologies and handles their payments and everything like that and connects them with clients and she's got a really thriving business in the UK. However, Catherine's challenge is that she wants more male virtual assistants. So we talk about whether that is the right target audience for her, and if it is, how is she can really, really drill down. Yeah. And how it'd be specific in the message.
Phil:
Yes, I love this episode. And even if you're not a virtual assistant, there's still a lot you can learn from her business and the discussion we have around, should I start to attract a brand new audience? Should I, or is that not what you should do? It's very interesting this chat. What else do we have, Lauren, in terms of obviously the podcast, but also the download.
Lauren:
Yes, they're good. So our free download is how to identify your target market worksheet. So figuring out who you're targeting, what they're all about, what they care about, etc. And then our blog post is content tips for a specific target market. So this is really interesting because it basically teaches you how to adjust and tailor your message to appeal to your different target markets, even if your initial message is the same.
Phil:
I love it. Well, you said, let's cut to the chase. So why don't we cut to the chase.
Lauren:
All right, here's our episode. Oh, sorry. I did your role.
Phil:
You go ahead. You have this.
Lauren:
Alright, here is our episode with Catherine.
Phil:
I say, here's our conversation.
Lauren:
Oh, sorry. Yeah, this is, this is why you do it. This is why you do it. Here is our conversation with Catherine. You always say, shall we? And then I have to go, let's do it every time. Let's go. Let's go. All right. Okay, let's, let's actually do it.
Phil:
Let's actually do it.
Catherine:
Hi, I'm Catherine and my business is delegate VA. I work as a virtual assistant, but alongside that as well, I also teach other people to become virtual assistants. So my question to you guys, Phil and Lauren, what's important with branding when considering your ideal clients? So I don't just want to work with women, I want to be appealing to men as well because men can be virtual assistants. So do I need to consider colors, mindset, likes and dislikes? So that's not something I can do on my own. So I really appreciate the time to ask you that question and find out a bit more.
Phil:
Wonderful. Well we're happy you're here and actually I like that you've thought about this and thought this is a decision I want some input on rather than just kind of making some decisions as it relates to your brand. You can make on your own. But trust me, even me branding, and I've done it for a long time, there's a lot of decisions I can't make on my own. And Lauren, right? You agree? There's things that you're like, let me just double check with Phil. And I'm like, let me just double check with Lauren. Sometimes it's important to have a conversation around these decisions.
Catherine:
Absolutely. It's so easy to just go ahead and go with something that you like. I do find I have to consider my audience, or I feel that I do anyway. So with the virtual assistant training bit, I've created a mint green so that it's not too girly. But then is that too girly? You can go around in circles.
Lauren:
Well this is a really interesting challenge and I love that you're considering this potential audience too. I find that it's helpful when you're appealing and trying to appeal to a new audience, to think about a specific person in mind when you're branding or writing or whatever. So my first question for you is have you found or spoken with men who want to become virtual assistants and is that where this idea came from?
Catherine:
Yes, I have actually. My first mentoring student if you like, was a man and I've also started a private members club for virtual assistants and I'm absolutely delighted to have a man in there as well. It's only one man amongst women, but I'm just really pleased to have that diversity. So yeah, there have been two that have come into my mind if you like.
Lauren:
Awesome. And would you say that the motivations of those men you've spoken with for why they want to become a virtual assistant is different than the women that you work with?
Catherine:
No, not always. Usually that that they're not happy in being an employee. They find that work life balance is limited. Stress levels are really high. They just want to do something and that makes their work in life much more enjoyable. Something that they can control. So it's, it's, it's actually the same as the women.
Lauren:
I'm not trying to like I was like, Oh God, this is seeming so sexist as I was asking it. But I also, I haven't come across many male virtual assistants in my life and I was just wondering, is there something different that they're drawn to? I mean women are natural caretakers and they really like to help and take care of other people. And I was wondering if men might be more drawn to the fact that you're multitasking and accomplishing a lot. Not that women aren't, Oh God, here I am just digging myself into a hole. Do you know what I mean?
Catherine:
Yeah. You know, I cannot multitask very well at all. It has to be one task. So I think my partner whose male is actually much better at multitasking than me so maybe men will be better at being virtual assistants.
Phil:
To be honest. I just Googled something related to male virtual assistant man virtual assistant, and actually not a lot of stuff came up. So I feel like this is already something that you could be writing on and just so that we can hopefully get you in this Google search because I love that you're passionate about it. I love that it's a, it's kind of like the difference between walking into a room that's crowded and trying to tell people your opinion. Right? So how to become a virtual assistant in 10 easy steps, whatever, that's gonna be a very crowded room. Yet you walk into a room that's geared towards men and virtual assistants, like that's less crowded so you have a higher chance of standing out. So I kind of love the idea of you just maybe starting to explore the creation of content and dialogue and conversation.
Discussion around that idea is really cool. I don't even know so much if this is a conversation about color or anything kind of aesthetic to me. And I always say branding is not just about how it looks, it's not just about looking good. It's really about using it as a business tool. So I love that color kind of manifests a bigger conversation around who is your audience, would you say? So even if you're, even if someone's just getting started with a business, we have to identify our audience, but be flexible to adjust depending on where business takes us. But at the same time, even if we'd been in business for a few years, it's a good idea to stop and reflect on who exactly is our audience
Catherine:
Of course, because it can change as well, can't it? As we learn more as we evolve and you know as we meet different people in different sectors, our audience might change and our ideal client might change as well. So the point.
Phil:
Completely, it's determined by where you spend your time, geographically, what your interests are. My first audience was TV hosts, so before I started branding all different kinds of projects and people around the world, it started as working with TV hosts. That was an industry that I was interested in just personally. It was something I thought about pursuing for a long time, but then I thought, I don't want to be, one of them actually would rather work and help these people get discovered on the internet and hopefully increase the likelihood, you know that they'll book a job. So I'm going to flip that on to you, Catherine. More than a discussion about color, we'll revisit that. What target market or group of people really excites you with your work?
Catherine:
Okay. So I think it's more about the people that they are. So I want to work with people that want to start and run their own virtual assistant business. That are determined. So one of the questions I always ask people is, what does success mean for you? What does a successful business mean to you? So that, you know, if they say, well, it's just so that I can spend more time at home with the children, I don't see that as a real passion to get the business up and running and make it a success. It's more of a need than a want. So it's people that are willing to work hard and have got a real passion to do it and not just make a quick buck or anything.
Phil:
You've got a few different audiences you're juggling, right? Cause you've got your virtual assistant business, but you've also got virtual assistants that need some guidance. Let me give you a brand hero. A friend of mine who, uh, work says an interior designer but also has built a brand that teaches interior designers how to structure their business. So her name is Kimberley Seldon and she's, um, based in Toronto, Canada, and very successfully juggles a few different business verticals, design projects, but then also teaching the business of design is, is her brand. So that's one worth checking out.
Catherine:
Ah, yeah, I'm going to, I've written that down. I'll have a look at her in a minute. That's great. That covers both elements, doesn't it?
Lauren:
Yeah. When we think about audiences generally we will, Phil and I don't think about demographics. We try to think about the emotional motivation or the problem that the audience needs solved. So usually what we do is we, we narrow it down to three audiences. And if you're really set on becoming a public speaker or doing more media, then those gatekeepers, producers, those people should be your third audience, which I think would be yours too. So for your first two audiences, it seems like you're appealing to virtual assistants. So those are determined hardworking people who want to feel a sense of accomplishment in the work that they do and who want to have the flexibility to work from home. I think that would be the first bucket cause the problem that they need solved as they're probably really, really good and really motivated at their current job. But they want to be able to do it where they want to. They don't want to be, you know, tied to a location. And then I think the second audience for you would be those business owners. So those are people who are driven by helping organizations or businesses at large in a way that's scalable. And they also maybe get a thrill from helping to coach people on their team to be more organized and more capable than they ever thought possible.
Catherine:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Lauren, we've never spoken before and you know, you've nailed it.
Lauren:
Oh good.
Phil:
She has a way of doing that. You said she did Phil when I met you last year. He was right!
Lauren:
Thank you. Thank you. But I, so I think if that feels right to you, I'm looking at your website right now and I think the how to become a virtual assistant page is awesome and I really, really like that you have the list of reasons why people are visiting your site today and I encourage you to continue building on those and be even more direct with your language. Think about it more from a sense of accomplishment and really just dig your heels into the determined angle. I think that's a great area for you to rock.
Catherine:
Okay, brilliant. I'm writing this down as well for a while. Menopausal brain will make you forget!
Lauren:
Well, good thing we're recording.
Catherine:
Absolutely, most things have to be recorded for me.
Lauren:
I am looking at the homepage of your website right now and you have an overview of who you are, which is awesome. But I think maybe the key is to have that emotional pull like be the largest thing on the page and right up top above the fold. I think maybe just something like I bring freedom to determined, accomplished individuals. Cause I think that's what you do. So, but something along those lines just to really like intrigue people off of the bat and also speak to your male audience.
Catherine:
Yeah. That's great. How did you come up with that so quickly?
Lauren:
It's all words you use. That's it.
Phil:
It's just where it's usually just listening to what you say cause you, this has every day for you, right? I mean you live it every day. So for you to say it out loud to people like us that are less familiar with your work, you just say it and explain it cause this is what you live. But what's also important is listening to yourself in those moments. It's in conversations like this where actually those tidbits of gold for your brand and we can mine them, you know, from sentences that you say without even realizing it. I have another thought on this that is something that I've, is selfishly, that I've thought about. You know, I've always wanted to hire a virtual assistant, but me as a prospective customer, I've ever really known what to hire a virtual assistant to help me do so. I love the idea of on your website, if you could indicate, let me be your audience as you craft this. Give me a few examples of how clients work. You might be really cool because it might be something that I do myself without even realizing it and go actually, you know, by hiring someone else to do that, it saves me time to do whatever it is I do. So I love the idea of giving some examples of like how you could help busy and accomplished people.
Catherine:
Yeah, I've done that in blog posts, but of course it's so hard to look through a blog post, isn't it for the SEO reason on my delegate VA website, but I need to answer those questions on the front page, don't I? You're right.
Phil:
I think I, I do. I think this is one of those cases where we can escalate from blog post to actual page or even incorporate it on your about page or maybe your services page. It makes me think of a website we did recently for a client where on the about page we gave an example of the last six projects or clients she booked as a travel brand. And so we actually say here's what I've been doing recently. Boom, boom, boom. And I think that's potentially more convincing than any kind of sales page. It lets people use their imagination of how they can benefit from you based on how others before them have done that. So I think I'd escalate that from blog posts. Definitely important as a blog post. But I'd put that right on a services page so people can see and get creative
Catherine:
So that they can relate to it I guess as well. Yeah. I love that. Brilliant. Thank you.
Phil:
Hold up. Good conversation. But now is a moment where we take a pause.
Lauren:
So you heard this at the beginning of the episode, but in case you were, you know, distracted or cooking or driving or whatever and not listening. Here it is again, our free download for the week is on philpallen.co/resources and you can figure out how to identify your target market through our worksheet. It's a really good one, right Phil?
Phil:
I love it. Yup. I love it. I love all of our worksheets, so this one is really good. Also browse some of the others that we've done in the past weeks. I liked that we've started doing this. I think it's really, really useful to take the conversation we have listened to it but then actually do something with it. So this week is really good.
Lauren:
Totally. And our blog posts, if you're not feeling like downloading anything, although that would be a dire mistake, our blog post of the week is ‘content tips for specific target markets’. So Phil, do you want to summarize what that's about?
Phil:
Yeah, our business well, you wrote it so you summarize it, but our business is an example of a specific target market, right? We do personal branding. When we started it was for TV hosts. Now it's for a little bit of everyone, but we are an example along with many of our podcast guests, where you focus on one industry and then you branch out. You can't be everything to everyone, otherwise you appeal to no one. So this worksheet, I feel is a really good one to help identify that specific audience.
Lauren:
Totally. But what about the blog post? So everyone, just remember philpallen.co/resources, tons of great stuff in there to help you improve your brand. That's enough of that. Let's go back to Catherine.
Phil:
Let's do it.
Phil:
I've tried to hire a VA at least three times and the conversation always just kind of fizzles out because I never know what to assign them. So I really believe something like this could be the make or break between someone deciding yes or no, let's move forward. And then what's beautiful about this captain that excites me is that you try this out on your own brand and then you incorporate that into how you educate others.
Catherine:
Of course. Yeah. Can I also give a tip as well? If you're ever thinking of working with a virtual assistant?
Phil:
Please do. Yeah cause I failed.
Catherine:
The tip I give, because I get a lot of inquiries from people saying that I know I need some help, but I don't know where to start. So my tip is to spend two or three days in your business, just jotting down everything you do. And at the end of those two or three days, look through the list and go, well I don't need to be doing that. I don't need to be doing that. But I'm going to keep that on my task list. And the stuff that you don't need to be doing is what the virtual assistant can do.
Lauren:
I love it.
Phil: It's so smart. It seems like common sense and it's just, it is. But that is, I almost need to hear it again. It's a really good idea. And you even said too Catherine, when you started this tip, you said start here, the place to start. So I actually wonder if there should be a tab on your website and I see this on some people's expert websites. Start here, you know, consider that having a page in your navigation called start here. Those are your exact words.
Catherine:
Oh, what a great idea. Yeah. Okay. That's going on my notes as well.
Phil:
I'd love to take all the credit for it, but it was your idea.
Catherine:
Oh, we can share it.
Phil:
I love it.
Lauren:
There was another brand that I love. Phil's always like, let's only use one example, one time per podcast across the whole thing, but I'm going to re use them again, is the brand Home Polish. So they're really big out in the US so you might not have heard of them, but they're basically a network of interior designers where you get a set price, you can all go do it all through their system and they'll do an initial audit and then scope out a project. And basically handle your interior design and it feels less risky to go through Home Polish than to hire an interior designer independently cause you've got the security of an organization. So I would take a look at Home Polish their website and really look at the copy they use. Like there's so like to the point it's just a delight to look through their site and I think that you could be strongly inspired by just the overall structure and language that they use. And I also know interior design is a typically feminine area of work, but obviously there are male interior designers. So this could also be a good brand hero for you visually in terms of the color choices they use and the neutral tones that they take, the fonts that they choose. There are a lot of similarities. There's just feels like slightly more masculine than yours and it might, it might be a good reference point.
Catherine:
Yeah, absolutely. Well a lovely website and it doesn't, it doesn't shout any agenda at all, does it?
Lauren:
It doesn't. It doesn't. And, and I know that they specialize in interiors, but you know, there might be something cool about showing shots of different work spaces or different desks and different styles all throughout your website. I think that's kind of a cool, a cool thing to explore.
Catherine:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. Oh, I love it.
Lauren:
And I love their about page. Yeah.
Phil:
Yeah. I love their about page. Oh I love that page. I reference that all the time when I'm designing.
Catherine:
Was it, I've got it. I've got it. I'll have a look at that. I'll keep that open take a look later. Oh, this just makes me wonder!
Phil:
Here's what I love. We are rounding off this discussion of audience with visuals. So maybe other branding people out there would disagree with me, but actually the visuals are the reward. They're absolutely essential and necessary. But to me this is a bit like dessert. So we don't eat dessert first. First we have, you know, we need to, we need to be clear, clear, clear, clear on who is our audience, how can we satisfy them, right? Like any good business does. So when we're clear on the gift, then we get to wrap the gift with paper that's gonna make people stop in their tracks. So now we're talking about colors and it might be time to make a slight adjustment because of colors you've got now are fairly feminine. But um, that's the fun part, right? The picking out the wrapping paper so that people remember you. The more important part of this to be able to do that and be informed is that first part, which is really understanding not necessarily what you want, but exactly who your audience is and what they want.
Catherine:
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this has been brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I'm actually sat here listening to you and thinking, right, so when can we start working together?
Phil:
I love it. I love it. What is going to be will tell us of all the ideas that we've shared with you and your kind of revenue and ready to go, what's going to be your next step?
Catherine:
Well I just picked up on you saying that people that eat dessert first are weird because I think I'm going to start a campaign about dessert first because I think we should all eat dessert first. But yeah, the bits that I'm definitely going to take up I'm going to definitely pick up on is to have a more direct language. So speak more directly with them. I liked Lauren's bit on, I help bring freedom to determined, accomplished individuals. Just that one sentence there targets the audience that I'm looking to work with the I want to work with. So just looking at that again, looking at that one sentence that Lauren said will enable me to think about the rest of the language on my website and I am also going to focus on opening up myself more male VA's. That sounds bad. I'm probably going to have to rethink how I speak of it because you know there's, there's men out there that can do an equally good job as a virtual assistant as women. So to look at that, to look at my about page and just kind of step back from it all and blink and reset if you like. Yeah, this has been enormous.
Phil:
That's wonderful. That sounds like a plan. I think it's nice to have a little discussion right around, like we said at the beginning, it's nice for you to make some of these day to day decisions on your own, but in the way the VA would, you know, help someone. Like we're having conversations now that the end result from some discussion, some dialogue is really beneficial. So I love how pumped up and excited you are to take those steps in. Those sound good to me. Did they sound good to you Lauren?
Lauren:
They sound awesome. Catherine. It's been such a pleasure.
Catherine:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time.
Phil:
What were you going to say, Catherine? I want to get that last thought you were about to say something.
Catherine:
I was just going to say that it just shows the importance of working with people that know their area because I could work on my website all day, every day and still not get a polished website that speaks to my audience, which is why you need to bring in experts like you and Lauren and I think this very short call, we've hardly been on the line long at all, and just shows that! So thank you so much.
Lauren:
Oh, you're amazing.
Phil:
Yes you are. I love your personality. I love just everything about you. Thank you so much for spending a few fun productive minutes with us on Brand Therapy.
Catherine:
Thank you so much. Take care.
Phil:
We'll chat with you soon. Bye.
Lauren:
Bye
Phil:
There we go. All right.
Lauren:
We covered a lot there, a lot.
Phil
We did and she was just so open and receptive and excited to be here with us for a few minutes and I just loved that she appreciated it and more importantly that she's going to take what we discussed and put it into action. Love that.
Lauren:
Yeah, me too. I think it's really fascinating that she came in wanting to discuss colors when really there is so much more to figure out first. You know what I mean?
Phil:
There always are colors. As fun as it is to talk about it, it's kind of like, it's not that important. I always say to people that are like, you know, the psychology of color, if I make my brand orange or that make people hungry, I'm like, honestly, I don't follow any of those rules. Like I'd rather go against what other people do just to increase the likelihood that you'll be noticed.
Lauren:
Totally. Totally. So I think the main thing, the most important thing that we talked about was how to identify her audience. Don't you think?
Phil:
Completely. Yeah. How basically how to speak the language of your target audience, right. How do you say something that will hopefully make them respond to you and identify themselves in how you've positioned your business? That's the most important thing.
Lauren:
Yeah, and while it is so scary to commit to being bold and direct in your language, I really do think that it helps intrigue the right people off the bat. Usually, I mean, I guess I could talk about the process that we follow a little bit but, but generally when we're thinking about a target audience, we'll think about three things like what does this person care about? What drives this person and what problem are you helping them solve? Don't you think? That's kind of the important things to consider?
Phil:
Completely. You've now just revealed your secrets to everyone. Now they know the secret process of Lauren more when it comes to identifying your target audience. But it's true. I mean those are the questions we ask, right? So number one, what does this person care about? Number two, what drives this person? Number three, what problem are you helping them solve? Notice how they're all qualitative behavior feel it's not, you know, give a random demographic assignment of gender and age and just this wide sweeping claim. The days of those kind of general parameters are gone in my opinion when it comes to targeting. Now you can get specific and it should be behavior driven.
Lauren:
Definitely. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?
Phil:
Yeah, maybe just this comes up a lot, but creating an inventory of your own thoughts and ideas. So I use a combination of things. I use an app called Brain Toss. So when I have a quick idea, right, if I'm in conversation, this happened the other day at a networking event, I had an idea, and needed to get that idea down I thought would make a great email blast. Boom. Use this app called Brain Toss. Just pull your phone out, say it out loud while the app is open and it will email you the audio and transcription of that audio instantly. So I think the app is like $2 but honestly it's the best $2 I've ever spent in the app store.
Lauren:
Yeah, cause it can help you figure out language that you naturally use that also emotionally appeals to your ideal audience. Like Catherine used the word determined right off the bat and yet on her website, determined was nowhere to be found.
Phil:
Right? Cause I, I picture someone sitting in a blank word doc going, okay, where do I start? And usually the results of that is people don't start at all. So audit yourself for those moments. You know, let's say here's something I did the other day, I did a podcast interview, right half an hour to be on someone else's podcasts kind of a long time in my day when you add it all up. So what I did was actually transcribed. I recorded that podcast locally and I transcribed the audio and I wrote a hundred tweets from half an hour of audio. So there is a way to repurpose and even just take what you're saying in conversation with a stranger and doing something with it.
Lauren:
Definitely. Well I guess now is where we ask people for five star reviews.
Phil:
We do, we do. If you enjoyed this episode with Catherine, what a sweetie pie. Let us know, visit the iTunes store. You can leave a review that actually helps people find us and a shout out to the the the several people that just did it a few days ago. Lauren and I literally keep an eye on that spot and when you give us a shout out, we appreciate it. What else? Find us on social media. I'm @philpallen.
Lauren:
I'm @thelaurenmoore
Phil:
#brandtherapy, That's where we'll continue this conversation. And until next time, we thank you for hanging out with us for a few minutes today and we look forward to the next time. See you then!
Lauren:
See you then!
